Fuel System Issues?

Ok,

277B, COMBUSTION MISFIRE ON CYLINDER #4

How many miles on the Clubman?  I'm guessing not too many.  I recently did a search on NAM for "Check Engine Light" since mine seems to come on for a few days and then goes off for a few (has done this twice).  While at NAM I read an interesting story about an owner of a new JCW who seemed to have a similar problem almost from day 1.  The (apparently lousy) MINI dealer just started throwing parts at it and finally blamed it on the gas.  The owner then produced all the Shell receipts he had showing 100% premium fill-ups on the corporate card.  Things went from bad to worse with MINI refusing to buy back what the owner termed a "lemon".  Finally he just abandoned it at the dealer, taking a few personal items out and taking a cab home, I think. 

Not to scare you, but I think that the "bad gas" diagnosis is pulled out far too often.  If you can't put Shell or Chevron in your car, what is left?

I'd stock up on fuel filter spares and maybe learn how to drop the tank yourself.  I highly doubt that any of that stuff actually needs to be replaced, save for the filters.  Just for fun, try running a few tanks of budget gas through and see what happens.  My personal favorites are Gasco, 7-11 or Safeway.  Nobody should ever use ARCO.

Just my .02

Bruce

Craig:

What do you think of the SeaFoam additive for cleaning the fuel system?  I believe that is what I saw discussed on NAM web site.

Stephen

Larry:

I would 2nd that thought.

S.

I went down to the shop after work and checked out the details. They still had the car all apart so I could check out what was going on. They have been very thorough and I spoke both with Rick and Kyle personally as we looked through the car. They showed me samples of the gas in a container after they had flowed some gas through the system from tank all the way through the hose to the fuel rail. It definitely has particles of some sort in it. They are small but visible. They showed me the fuel filter/pump, fuel tanks were open under the seat, etc. I asked the same question about the filter and how it could get that far into the system with a fuel filter in place, but in reality the filter is not like your typical old school in line filter. It is simply a filter similar to the canister type that you see in the oil filter, the thing is it doesn't actually filter everything out like you would expect. The way it's engineered just doesn't cut it. Stupid design. We also discussed the rash of instances they have been experiencing with even top-tier fuels causing check engine codes to pop. Apparently, they have been seeing high levels of ethynol in the fuel people are getting...even from Shell, Chevron, etc. As high as 15%+! Anything over 10% has a tendancy to cause haywire with the emissions/fuel system. Rick said that it's getting to the point that Chevron is the only "approved gas" by the auto industry. He agrees it's rediculous because the engine management systems are getting so sensitive it's making it nearly impossible to get "good gas". This is of course not the issue I'm having, but it's creating a real issue for owners and dealers alike.

Edited by Wildfamily - March/09/10 at 7:38pm

Well ... Stephen beat me to the punch for one item on my mind.  Perhaps when John see this thread we'll hear more a few hours later about real fuel filters.  I'd definitely pursue that course, with due respect for the pressure drop through this added restriction.  While on the subject of filters ... just why is the original fuel filter in our MINIs not capable of intercepting visible particles?  I'd be following up on that too!!!

I didn't think think to ask about installing a traditional filter and realistically I doubt they would do that since it's not a standard procedure or "approved part".  The only reason I bring up running some fuel system cleaner through the system is that maybe it will help break down some of the crap in the tank and keeping it form clogging up things in the system as it works it's way through. Just a hope I guess. Maybe draining the tank and a new filter is the way to go...at least that would get rid of the bulk of the remaining crap and then we would just need to deal with the particles that have made it past the filter for a while.  

Here is another thought, and a practice that I use whenever I fill the tank.  Never, never, never fill the tank if a fuel truck is filling the stations main tanks or has just done so!!!!  It stirs up the crud in the bottom of THEIR tanks and neatly deposits it into your tank.  I have driven away from more than one station and went to find another, even if it meant non approved gas.  If you can find when your regularly visited station gets their regular deliveries of fuel then schedule your fill-up to be a day later.

S.



Edited by Soggy-1 - March/09/10 at 9:08pm

Hummmmmmmm

Thanks Bruce but no need to do that they are already out there.  All so they already track the ethanol at the pumps I just have to remember the agency and web site. To answer the fuel filter change DIY here,http://www.minicooperspeed.com/fuel-filter-change/

Try this concerning the 15%
 http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/stock-problems-issues/167748-fuel-pump-replacement-isnt-covered-under-warranty-because-of-bad-gas.html

Tank seals wrong, you will find our own Larry in the know on this one
http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/coupe-talk-2002-2006/161680-fuel-filter-tank-seals-were-wrong.html

Some thing to think about here?  The Wilds are Mini rich, I don't think that it is not to far out of line to say that since Martin and Anne live in the same house and generally drive the same areas that they must most often fill their Mini's at the same stations from time to time.????? Why does BadS not have a fuel problem???? They share the same fuel system design????

Over the years I have moved , handled and transferred a lot of fuel of all types. Fuel contamination can happen in many ways and forms. But particulates such as are being described are general caught at the filter that is on the pump before it goes in your car. The term bad gas comes from fuels becoming sour,watered down or mixed in which most common filters will not stop, hence why it ends up in your tank.

So this bad gas thing brings use to why no up line filters in the Mini? One of the problems with Ethanol is it readily absorbs water. Which is a big problem with vehicles that have metal fuel tanks. This is one of the reasons there was only a soxs/screens on the pick up and a filter up stream. Purpose being to catch rust and other junk that showed up in the tank. So way is the filter system the way it is on the Mini???
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html
http://e85.whipnet.net/ethanol.faq/
http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

Mini's fuel tank is plastic, no rust from water and since fuel and there pumps are strictly regulated the chances of particulates entering your tank are next to zero.

So what do I think???? Do you really want to know????

John


Edited by johnf36 - March/10/10 at 2:02am

Martin, sorry to read about all this crap with the codes and gas.

Martin, has there been an attempt to identify what these particles are that are in fuel?

Good questions and observations all...just so many. My head is swimming!  Greg, I agree..not getting everything out in it's entirety will most likely just keep the problems coming. The code it's throwing is "277B - Combustion Misfire on Cylinder #4".  We fill are cars up at the same Chevron 99% of the time in Lake Stevens. Last fill up though was at the 76 station across the intersection the day before the mis-fire. I think my biggest question is how can the gas station filtration system and the MINI's both not pick up that much crap in the fuel. Amazing. 

If its any consolation, if I google "bad gas lake stevens", your NAM post is #1 so if there is anyone else out there searching, they might find you.

Greg my thoughts exactly, What you describe in the fuel that Seattle Mini found sounds like the remains of the manufacturing of your fuel tank.

If this was an older car I might feel a little different, but it is not. Adding that you both fill up at the same stations most of the time and only one care has problems. One of the things with top tier gasoline is the quility of the fuel http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html and as Martin found out in contacting the dealer that it is very unlikely that they dished out dirty Gas.

It comes back to the fact that it may have been in the tank when the car was built.

Something to think about is that most systems with filtration are designed to remove things that are large enough to cause damage to thus said system. So it is possible to have little floaters in the gas that don't cause a problem.

What about this Martin, Take CocoPuff put a new filter in and a fresh tank of gas and drive it for a week and see what happens, if problems continues then go back to Seattle Mini and do the whole fuel system cleaning thing.

It would be nice to know what the stuff is, will Seattle send a sample out for testing?